Demystifying Therapy: A Conversation with Katherine Seldin, PhD

In this episode of The Adaptive Mind, I talk with Katherine Seldin, Ph.D., a postdoctoral fellow at the University of Illinois, Chicago with expertise in emotional impulsivity, mood disorders, and evidence-based therapies. Katherine breaks down the often confusing world of therapy—from finding the right match to knowing when therapy has served its purpose.

After listening to this episode you'll learn:

• Why therapy "not working" usually means the fit wasn't right—not that therapy itself is ineffective

• How to navigate therapist credentials (PhD, LCSW, LMFT) and use resources like Psychology Today to find providers

• What to expect in your first therapy sessions and why the intake process, though sometimes challenging, offers valuable opportunities for self-reflection

• When matching with a therapist who shares your background matters and why the therapeutic alliance is critical to success

• Practical alternatives to talk therapy, including mindfulness practices with proven neurological benefits

Join us as we explore the therapy journey from start to finish, with honest insights about what makes therapy effective and how to navigate your own mental health care with confidence.

Episode Transcript

Brady Dowling: Welcome to this episode of the Adaptive Mind podcast. Joining us today is Katherine Seldin, a postdoctoral fellow and PhD. And she's currently at the University of Illinois, Chicago. She has an expertise in emotional impulsivity, mood disorders, and digital interventions. And with extensive training in evidence-based therapies like CBT, ACT, and DBT.

Katherine is passionate about making mental health care more accessible and will share insights on neuroplasticity and behavioral change. Katherine, welcome.

Katherine Seldin: Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

Brady: Yeah, awesome. So we're to talk a lot about therapy and kind of what, that's like, what, when that can be a good fit, when it's not a good fit, maybe some alternatives. So to start, I've seen several different therapists throughout my life and I know that there are people on kind of different parts of the spectrum, people that are very familiar with therapy and people that are completely, completely unfamiliar.

To start, I would be curious, what with therapy, do you think therapy would be helpful for everybody no matter what?

Katherine: great question. The short answer to this is I think that some form of therapy could be helpful for everyone. There are so many different types of therapies and forms of therapies and also so many different types of needs that people might have from therapy. Do I think that all types of therapies would be helpful for everyone? No. But there is some type of therapy that I think

would be helpful for everyone. And I think that mismatch between the type of therapy that would be helpful for a person and the thing that that person might need, that mismatch, I think is what results in a lot of people kind of coming out and saying, well, therapy doesn't work. It's not because therapy doesn't work, it's because the fit that that person had maybe wasn't the best for them.

Brady: Right, so going into that fit, let's talk about finding a therapist. So what kind of mechanisms would you suggest or would you use to actually start finding a therapist?

Katherine: Yeah. The internet is my best friend when I'm trying to find a therapist for either my patients or my loved ones or people in my community. But the internet is big. like, what does that mean? There are, mean, psychologytoday.com is actually a really great resource. It has a whole ton of providers. You can filter by your insurance. You can filter by sliding scale. I believe you can filter by sliding scale on there, by a lot of different things and you can see a lot of people. If cost is something that's really important to you and you have insurance, I would recommend going through your insurance website first, honestly, just because then you can be certain that whoever you're seeing is covered by your insurance. And then from there kind of filtering through some of those people, reading their bios, seeing maybe feels like a good fit.

Some of these associations, psychological associations, also have really nice directories available, like the Association for Cognitive and Behavioral Therapies has. It's ADCT. They have a nice online directory with a nice long list of psychologists and other therapists who are kind of affiliated with that organization. The Association for Contextual and Behavioral Science, or ACDS, has a great directory as well.

In using these databases, I would recommend just paying attention to, when you look at people's bios, what kinds of things they say that they have expertise in or history in working with and what kind of education they have. The letters after someone's name, which can look sometimes like alphabet soup, letters after someone's name refer to the kind of education that they've had.

which may or may not matter depending on kind of what you're looking for. So if somebody has a PhD or a PsyD, which is P-S-Y-D, that means that they've usually had a lot more education and a greater number of years kind of deeply into the principles underlying these different psychotherapies, mechanisms of change, and have oftentimes actually been the ones like putting out that research themselves. They've been doing the research themselves.

Whereas people with other different alphabet soup letters after their names might have, like fewer years, but not always. Some people might have done more like independent training on their own outside of the years that their like formal degree gave them. so it's not a guarantee and also not everybody needs to necessarily be seeing someone with super deep expertise in different types of therapies. It's not necessary for everyone or every type of therapy.

Brady: Right. So thinking about that alphabet soup, I'm sure there are probably some more common abbreviations that people will see. What are some of the most common ones that people would see? And then we can just talk about the meaning of those. I'm sure people can Google them, but to touch on them.

Katherine: Yeah, so it a little bit varies by state, which can make it even more complicated. But one that's common that you'll see is LMFT, which is Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. And then you'll see LCSW is one of the more common ones that you'll see. So somebody with an LCSW, they first got their degree in social work, they got an MSW, which is a master's in social work.

And then in order to become an LCSW or a licensed clinical social worker, they had to do additional years of training and supervision and providing therapy after they got their master's degree. And that additional therapy training that they had was supervised by somebody kind of helping them and making sure that they were really learning things correctly or in a way that's aligned with the existing literature. So LCSW is I think is going to be the most common one you see aside from PhD or PsyD.

Brady: Okay. And then, so the credentials or at least the letters seem pretty straightforward. They're probably listed everywhere. I'm curious, what are some of the challenges or maybe difficulties in finding someone that's the right fit? I know there are several people, companies in the space of trying to make sure that

people can find really good matches. And I know that that can be a big challenge. So what are some particularly challenging pieces of that puzzle right now?

Katherine: Yeah, so many challenging pieces to that puzzle. The biggest thing that we know actually from the literature, one of the greatest predictors of success in a psychotherapy situation is feeling something that we call therapeutic alliance, which is a fancy way of saying, is there like a chemistry between you and your therapist? Do you feel like you have a sense of trust in your therapist, a sense of safety with your therapist?

Do you feel like your therapist understands you and is supporting you and, is really aligned with you and kind of like on your side. So having that sense of chemistry with your therapist is going to be really important. And sometimes the only way to know if you have that chemistry is to give it a try. It's a little bit like dating. You know, you kind of go to the first date, which is the intake and you see, do we get along? Do we like each other? How's this going? Maybe.

You go back for another date, a couple more dates, and I don't know, maybe ultimately you decide, hey, this isn't a great fit, and you move on. Or maybe it feels like a great fit for you, and you keep moving forward with that person. Sometimes therapists will let you do a 15-minute free consultation on the phone just to kind of get a little bit of an intro, getting to know you before you go in for the intake. This can help them kind of determine whether or not they think it might be a good fit and also help you determine whether you think it might be a good fit. So the alliance and that kind of relationship is really important. And then for some different like challenges that people might be going through that they might seek therapy for, those different challenges might kind of like warrant different types of therapies that would be important to know about.

So for example, if somebody is really struggling with insomnia, the gold standard first line recommended treatment for insomnia is something called CBTI or cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. This is a really structured therapy. There's a workbook, a manual, homework. It kind of feels like a class, but it's really effective and is shown to be as effective, actually, if not more effective than any kind of like medication that you might take for sleep. So that's something that if you're having insomnia and you're looking for a therapist, a therapist is going to be a good fit for you as somebody who is able to deliver that intervention to you, which is CBTI effectively. That's going to be really important for fit. If you're somebody with OCD, of similarly, you're going to want somebody who has some kind of expertise in exposure or something called exposure and response prevention.

which is the gold standard treatment for OCD. If you're somebody on the other hand, who's struggling with something like interpersonal relationship challenges or kind of like your social support system, there maybe isn't so much a gold standard treatment that is as necessary for you to kind of look for in somebody's bio. This could be a little bit more flexible and more about fit and kind of personality.

Brady: Okay. And so going off of you, what you were talking about with the therapeutic Alliance and then also the different modalities and kind of the focuses, a friend of mine who's a psychiatrist mentioned that there's almost to simplify, you can break it down into two different aspects, which is, the mechanisms or the research based methods that are used. then the therapeutic Alliance does it, is that accurate that it's kind of like, the two-fold approach.

Katherine: Sure. Yeah, So saying like there's this piece that is the relationship and then the other piece being the type of intervention that's applied. Yeah. I would say so.

Brady: Yep, exactly.

Katherine: continuing on about picking a therapist and finding that right fit, is it helpful or not helpful or maybe somewhere in between to find somebody that seems like me, that maybe looks like me, maybe they're the same race, gender, whatever, are those valuable to select for or not so much?

Katherine: Yeah, I mean, it could be. It really depends on your preferences and what you feel most comfortable with. That's going to contribute to the Alliance. If in the past you've had experiences that, for example, a common thing that I'll see when people are kind of submitting like intake requests or things like that is somebody had a trauma experience with a certain type of person with certain identities, they might have a request that a therapist doesn't share those identities with the person who perpetrated some kind of violence against them. So in that case, that's, think, a really good example of maybe there are certain, like, aspects of someone's identity that you might want to select for in looking for a therapist. Having somebody that looks like you has aligned values with yours. In theory, as a therapist, we should be able to adapt, adjust, and not be trying to put all of our values onto our patients. That being said, of course, we all come from our own bias. We all have our own lens. It's your therapist's job to be aware of their own biases and blind spots and manage that to the best of their ability. And if you feel like you're seeing a therapist who maybe doesn't look different or who looks different from you or maybe doesn't have a similar background or you're kind of thinking that they don't have similar values, if it feels like

there's like a lack of safety or it doesn't feel comfortable in that dynamic or you feel like they're maybe trying to put their own worldview onto you. That's maybe like a orange flag or a red flag that maybe it's not the right fit for you.

Brady: Yeah, so it sounds like it's helpful for somebody to be aware of these things and it's probably a very individual approach like in certain cases matching by gender or demographic, whatever, these things can be very important and other cases like they might not be important at

So moving on from the matching part and kind of getting a glimpse into what therapy is like logistically when someone starts therapy, what can they expect? I know you've already kind of touched on maybe an intake call, but what can someone actually expect from beginning therapy?

Katherine: Yeah. So sometimes there's a beginning call, as I mentioned. When you go in for the first appointment, which is called an intake, some therapists might have you fill out some like questionnaires or paperwork before you even go in. This might have multiple choice questions about your mood. This might have short answer questions about your past therapy experiences or what you're looking for out of therapy or

your family history. Some therapists don't have an intake paperwork like that. So you might have some paperwork to fill out beforehand. And then you'll go in for that first appointment. Even though the first appointment is officially called an intake, it could be, I mean, a few sessions of intake. could be maybe even up to like four sessions, depending on how extensive your history is and the kind of therapy modality that this, that your therapist is using.

that the first even few sessions could be a lot of the kind of Q &A, getting to know you, kind of getting a broad overview of a lot of different things so that the therapist can help you focus in on what are the most important things for therapy right now. But getting that broad sense is important to get kind of like a framework of what the intervention is happening within. And

bigger picture sense of like your life. And also sometimes people come in thinking that they have one particular thing like, hey this is what I really want to focus on in therapy, and then during the intake process, it's not uncommon, that there's some kind of discovery that, wait a second, when you asked me about that I didn't realize that that's actually a really major issue, or that that's something that I even could address in therapy. And now that we've started talking about it I'm realizing actually I think I want to address that first.

So that intake process is really helpful. And I know that sometimes the intake process can be a little bit of like a deterrent for people actually is what I've heard. They're like, well, I've already seen a therapist and I've already gone through my whole history and I don't wanna have to do it again. So valid. But I tell those people who I'm really trying to encourage to go through with it, to go into therapy anyway is.

This is an opportunity. Yes, the history is the same, but you aren't. And it's an opportunity for you to revisit that history as the version of yourself that you are now and see it through a different lens because you are different now than you were the first time, the second time, the third time that maybe you revisited this and different parts of this story are going to stand out to you in different ways. So I encourage people to not recite it like a script. They've been through a million times, but to really use it as an opportunity to really sincerely revisit it.

and revisit it with a new person who's going to maybe have different questions about it or experience it differently.

Brady: Yeah, that sounds like a really valuable perspective. And yeah, probably one that can hopefully break down barriers and kind of get someone to embrace this chance because you reference kind of the similarities with therapy and dating before. And I think getting into a therapist-client relationship is very different from dating in that when you start, you like really dig into the meat and potatoes. You're not, you're not doing like, what's the weather, stuff like that. It's, it's a lot more challenging than going on a first date. So, I think having that perspective can be a really valuable thing. so before you touched on a therapist, inherently just having biases and having experiences that they bring.

Katherine: That's true, yeah.

Brady: Is that something that a clinician would explain at the outset or should explain?

Katherine: Hmm. That's a great question. There are differing opinions on this and differing things that show up in the literature about this. The short answer is it depends. That's going to be the answer in lot of situations, unfortunately, is that it depends. It depends on sometimes like the age of your patient, younger folks tend to

maybe you want to talk about different aspects of their identity more easily. it's sometimes you get a more open response to asking somebody about their pronouns, for example, or their gender journey, then you might get in different like, know, generations or older patients or even different regions, they're like regional differences, kind of trying to a little bit of a guess. Early on, there's like, you know, it's an educated guess of

to what degree naming that and having an open discussion about it right away is going to be helpful. Because for some people, for some patients, it's really off-putting to try to have that discussion early on. And it feels like, OK, is this more for the therapist or is it for me? Is it for the therapist to feel good about them coming in and talking about their perspective? Or is it maybe makes me feel uncomfortable? And on the flip side of that, coming in and really naming those things up front can really like

strengthen the alliance and can really help a person, have a patient like feel safe and seen. So it kind of depends and it's a little bit of an educated guess.

Brady: Yes, okay. So keeping on trend here with a very individual experience and kind of personal approach. So if someone is going into therapy for the first time or maybe even hasn't been in a while, what are some things that they might be surprised by or might catch them off guard as they start?

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah.

Brady: Yeah.

Yeah. So sometimes therapy, depending on the type of therapy, but for many therapies, things feel worse before they feel better. And that initial, why do things feel worse phase can be really tough to get through. And if you can get through it, things usually will feel better. I say usually because if

the therapist that you're seeing is like somebody that you don't feel safe with, isn't, there isn't that strong alliance there, then it might be harder for things to get better. So wanting to like get a feeling for whether that relationship is there and that trust is there maybe before kind of like diving in. But it can feel worse before it feels better because you're kind of stirring up, you're kind of kicking up the dust inside your

A metaphor that I like to use sometimes is if you've got like a messy home or a messy room and you're trying to clean it up, in order to deep clean, you've got to take things out from underneath the cabinets. You've got to move the furniture around to really kind of dust off things and scrub the floor. You've got to kind of make it look a little bit more chaotic so that you can get in there and really do the deep cleaning. So if you leave the room before you've put everything back together, it's going to look a lot worse than when you started.

But then if you can stay in there long enough to put the room back together, you'll notice that you're in a better spot than when you started.

Brady: Okay, that's really helpful. So when someone is starting therapy or even throughout their journey, what might be some questions that a person could ask the therapist that would be helpful?

Katherine: Yeah. If you know what you're going in wanting to work on in therapy, it can be helpful to ask the therapist what experience they have in working with people with a similar challenge to you or in people who are similar to you in terms of aspects of your identity that feel important to you. Just asking them what kind of experience they have with those kinds of things.

Also asking them if you have done your own kind of Googling or research about different therapy modalities and you kind of have a sense of, I know I really want to do DBT because that's something I was reading about and that sounds great. You could ask them what experience they have with DBT or different specific types of therapies. If having an evidence-based therapy is really important to you. When I say evidence-based therapy, mean having

a type of therapy that has been supported and validated by scientific research. So if that's really important to you, you can ask them about what types of evidence-based therapies they do. You can also ask them, once you're kind of in a relationship with them, for example, and you've started, you can ask them how they're thinking about...

your kind of like case conceptualization, quote unquote, which is like the jargon that we therapists use to talk about the way that we're thinking about the challenges that someone is bringing in. And you can ask them what their approach is for their treatment with you if they haven't already outright told you. And even beforehand, you could ask them, you know, for somebody, for example, who has kind of general anxiety about a whole bunch of things, I'm just kind of chronically anxious.

What kind of approaches do you generally use for somebody who's kind of chronically anxious? You could ask them that even before you start therapy to give you a little bit of an idea of what it could look like with that person.

Brady: Okay. So talking about maybe like the diagnosis, the plan of attack and then kind of just anything that's on their mind about, yeah, what, what they're thinking about the current situation. Okay. Great. And then to close out talking about kind of jumping into therapy, can you talk about the difference between, zoom therapy versus in person?

Katherine: Hmm? Yeah.

Yeah, I love telehealth from an access to care standpoint. It has given so many people so many opportunities to not only see just like all therapists, but to get the specialized care that they might need that they maybe ordinarily wouldn't be able to get in whatever city they're in town they're in with whatever wait lists exist in

within a 50 mile radius for them. So I'm a big fan of telehealth. Something that might feel different on Zoom is

Just kind of like the vibe, I don't know, like the energy, just like being in person with someone can sometimes make it feel easier to connect. It can feel a little bit more, if it flows a little bit more seamless. For some types of therapies, you might want to be in person. Your therapist would talk to you about that. There can be some benefits to getting yourself out of your home and having to go somewhere and be in therapy once a week as a reason to get yourself up and moving. So that can be a real benefit to in-person therapy.

A real benefit to telehealth is if you're somebody who's struggling with anxiety and a lot of the therapy for anxiety looks like something called exposure or doing things that feel hard to do to teach your brain that those things are actually doable and not so bad. So when people are having therapy virtually, it gives the therapist an opportunity to kind of go with you into some of those hard environments or hard experiences and kind of coach you through it.

and really be there with you to go through those things. And that can be a real advantage to telehealth as well.

Brady: Okay, so you're saying literally if say someone is anxious about going on a walk on their street, then you're saying they could literally have a session while they're walking on the street. Very interesting. Okay. Yeah. I never considered that before.

Katherine: Yeah, that's a great benefit of telehealth too.

Brady: Awesome. Okay. So we've talked a lot about finding a therapist and then also kind of getting started on in therapy, what that would look like. Maybe things that would be surprising or things to watch out for. Let's transition over to, maybe stopping therapy or reasons that therapy might not be a good fit. So

Yeah, let's just start with that one. When is therapy not a good fit for a person?

Katherine: I mean, I think it comes, it often comes back to this idea of feeling safe, comfortable and understood. So if you're noticing that you're feeling unsafe, uncomfortable or misunderstood, it's a red flag, in terms of the fit might not be right for you. if you've been in therapy for a long time and things are feeling a bit

stale or stagnant or kind of like you've plateaued. That's the point at which having a conversation with your therapist, if that relationship is good for you, or even if it feels hard to do that, do it anyway. It's an opportunity to like do a hard thing and kind of go on your growth edge. So having a conversation with your therapist that you already have and kind of just naming feels like, you know, we were making a lot of progress in the beginning and things that I'm feeling kind of like they're

moving at kind of the same rate recently. I'm wondering how you think therapy is going, if you have any ideas about maybe if there's anything we can do to kind of shake things up and have things feel fresh again. So trying to have the conversation first is something I would recommend if you're already in therapy and you like your therapist and been going well for the most part, because they can oftentimes pivot and do something else. We really need your feedback.

I mean, we try to use our own perceptions and judgments and all of that, but ultimately you're the expert of your own experience. So we really need you to tell us kind of what's going on for you. So if you tell your therapist, hey, I'm kind of looking to shake things up. If they are able to do that, they'll kind of tell you and they'll do that with you. And that might be really helpful. If that's kind of a limit for them and they're saying, well, this is kind of the main therapy that I can do. They might have some really good recommendations of.

other things for you to try or even their own colleagues like, hey, I have this other person in my group practice or in my clinic who actually has expertise in this thing. And I think it would be great for you to go and see that person and they can give you maybe a different perspective. So that might be a good reason to end therapy too, is even if things are really great, maybe there's just a new perspective that would be helpful.

Brady: Yeah, so I actually once was seeing a therapist and she then was having a baby and so she went on maternity leave and she gave me one of her colleagues and we kind of did a little switch for a little bit. And so it was really interesting to get different perspectives and really a completely different approach, even though I had become comfortable with my one therapist. And so again, it was like getting out of this comfort zone, but also

Brady: Yeah.

Katherine: having these different perspectives and in a different approach was really enlightening and beneficial for me. So is there such thing as a bad therapist? what are some things that you would watch out for? I know we've touched on a few red flags, but what are kind of the big ones that you would be like, be aware of this?

Katherine: Yeah, I mean, definitely the things that we've mentioned of like, if somebody makes you feel unsafe, or unheard, like, you can't really like, trust them. That's definitely not ideal. I think if you bring things up that feel hard to say to you and are vulnerable or kind of

sensitive or like precious to you and it's met with disregard or a seeming lack of care. Like it's not being kind of held gently and with the care that it deserves to be held with. I think that's kind of a sign of maybe somebody who could use more like supervision or like training and how to do that more effectively for a therapist.

If you are feeling like this would necessarily make this person a quote unquote bad therapist, but if you're feeling like you're there, you're confused about what's going on with your, with your therapy and you're trying to ask your therapist for clarification and they're not really able to give you clarification that makes sense to you or that you are able to kind of understand that would also be kind of an indicator that like, maybe that's not the person for you to be seeing right now.

Brady: Okay, great. So let's say for an instance where someone gets to a point where they feel good about where they are and maybe they're going to stop going to therapy for a little while or maybe indefinitely, is there something that a person should do in that circumstance like to make a clean transition out of therapy or is it okay and the most helpful to just be like, thanks for everything and

Let's stop.

Katherine: I love a good goodbye. You've got to stay for the goodbye. Honestly, because goodbyes are so hard for so many of us, just generally. Like, goodbyes are painful, they're awkward. A lot of us have goodbyes in our lives that were not good, that were like very unpleasant goodbyes. And saying goodbye in a positive therapy situation is an opportunity to have a new type of goodbye and to have a new learning experience around what a goodbye can be.

And especially if it's a therapist that you've been seeing for a long time, that you really love, that you're really connected to, it can be an opportunity to share in all of that with them, to get to kind of be on a growth edge of vulnerability, of kind of honoring the relationship and allowing it to be an opportunity for celebration and reflection.

If you're feeling like, therapist is not a good fit, I don't feel comfortable, I don't feel safe, then like, yeah, a clean break is fine.

Brady: Yeah. Okay. So using it as an opportunity to kind of wrap things up, but also like recap and almost strengthen the benefits that you've gotten from therapy so far. Okay. Great. So thinking about maybe someone that's moving on from therapy or someone who explored it a little bit and it was like, you know what? I just don't think talk therapy is like the thing for me right now.

Katherine: Totally.

Brady: What are some alternative approaches that could be beneficial for somebody? know right now there's probably just an abundance of people that are like chat GPT, I'm going to go like get my free therapy. So what are some, what are some good alternatives and maybe also some things to be aware of.

Katherine: Yeah, I definitely would not recommend chat GPT as a therapist.

Brady: And why is that like bullet point version? We don't have to go in depth, but.

Katherine: Yeah, bullet point version is you just you can't know what you're gonna get. You can't know whether what you're gonna get is something that is like a valid response. There's not really that kind of like degree of oversight. And I think when it's, when someone's, it's your health and your wellbeing.

Brady: Great.

Katherine: I wouldn't rely on that when there hasn't curated in that way specifically to provide services that are supported by the science that we have. Is my bullet point version of that. Some things that I would recommend if you're somebody who is not going to be in talk therapy for whatever reason, and this could also be if you feel like you don't have the resources either like

financially or time or otherwise to actually be in therapy. I mean, a strong social support system is like also one of the biggest predictors of just like wellbeing and like positive outcomes for people. So friends, friends are like a really great or family or your community or whoever it is for you investing in those relationships to be really helpful.

Also, a lot of contemporary therapies are increasingly using ancient Eastern practices that a long time ago people in the East were like, hey, know, meditation and mindfulness, there's something really there. And only recently have Western scientists been like, hmm, maybe we should have listened earlier. And now Western scientists are starting to incorporate more of mindfulness and meditation into a lot of the evidence-based therapies that we do. So.

some kind of like meditation or mindfulness practice, even if you're doing this outside of therapy, there's like a million and one apps, a million and one free YouTube videos of how to do a guided meditation and things like that, a million and one mindfulness books out there, but doing some kind of practice like that can give you really significant benefits. It has like actual impacts on your brain, which in turn is going to have impacts on your behavior, your emotions, the way that you think.

So that kind of practice, and there are groups if you wanna kind of do like a weekly, like make sure you have accountability. There are like oftentimes meditation groups in your community that sometimes are even free that you could just kind of show up once a week for however many minutes, 30 minutes, an hour to just sit and meditate with people.

Brady: Great. And, and similar to finding therapy, think meditation is also something that's probably challenging and awkward to jump into a lot of times. And also a person needs to find the right fit. So that's probably a similar, similar dynamic as finding the right therapist. Okay, great.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely.

Brady: well, thank you so much for digging into all this stuff. think, yeah, there are a lot of people that can benefit just from having like very high level insights about what these different parts of the process are. So thank you so much for coming on Katherine

Katherine: Yeah, it's been a pleasure.

Episode Links

• Katherine Seldin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katherine-seldin/

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